Veterinary Vertex
Veterinary Vertex is a weekly podcast that takes you behind the scenes of the clinical and research discoveries published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (JAVMA) and the American Journal of Veterinary Research (AJVR). Tune in to learn about cutting-edge veterinary research and gain in-depth insights you won’t find anywhere else. Come away with knowledge you can put to use in your own practice – along with a healthy dose of inspiration to remind you what you love about veterinary medicine.
Veterinary Vertex
Horse Owner Opinions Regarding Equine Veterinarian Attire and Attributes
Do the clothing choices of equine veterinarians affect client trust? Join us as we welcome Drs. Erin O'Neil and Callie Fogle to unpack their eye-opening survey results on equine veterinary attire preferences. We explore the "white coat effect" and reveal that horse owners often favor scrubs and coveralls, challenging traditional expectations. Discover why first impressions matter so much and how attributes like knowledge, competency, trustworthiness, and compassion top the list of what horse owners look for in their vets. You'll also gain insight into why personal features like tattoos and piercings don't play as big a role in client perceptions as you might think.
Erin and Callie share surprising findings from their research, such as the unexpected popularity of coveralls and the intriguing gender biases linked to attire choices. Learn how seasonal and environmental factors shape what equine vets wear. This episode offers a comprehensive look at how equine veterinary attire influences client trust.
JAVMA article: https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.24.02.0083
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Speaker 2:You're the one I want Dogs should be tested for existing heartworm infection prior to starting a preventive. To learn more, visit nextguardpluscliniccom. You're listening to Veterinary Vertex, a podcast of the AVMA Journals. In this episode we chat about how horse owner opinions regarding equine veterinarian attire and attributes with our guests Erin O'Neill and Callie Fogle and attributes with our guests Erin O'Neill and Callie Fogle.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Veterinary Vertex. I'm Editor-in-Chief Lisa Fortier and I'm joined by Associate Editor Sarah Wright. Today we have Erin and Callie joining us. Hey, erin and Callie, thank you so much for taking time out of your super busy clinic schedules to be with us here today.
Speaker 4:Of course, thanks for having us.
Speaker 5:Yes, we're really excited to be here.
Speaker 2:All right, let's trot on over. So, erin and Callie, I found the topic of your article super interesting. In vet school, we always talked about the white coat effect as it relates to small animal medicine, and your article looks at equine medicine, which is super cool. So, as we said before in the intro, your JAVMA article discusses the results of a horse owner survey about equine veterinarian attired attributes. Can you share with our listeners the background on this study?
Speaker 4:Of course yeah. So the white coat of fat is something that you know, we talked about in vet school as well, and I think it's very well studied in human medicine and even a little bit in the small animal setting. The other thing is that we all know that first impressions happen very quickly I mean within a tenth of a second, according to the research of meeting somebody. You've already had this kind of superficial opinion of them, and so I thought it would be really interesting to see how that can translate over into the equine setting. We don't wear things like white coats. Obviously they're not the most horse-friendly attire, but there is a lot of different attire worn by equine vets in different parts of the country if you're in a referral setting or private practice. So I thought it would be interesting to see how that kind of is portrayed to our owners and if they have any true preference or kind of opinions on what we wear.
Speaker 2:And what were some of the pivotal findings from this study?
Speaker 4:So overall, kind of the biggest thing that we found is that when we looked at the top three attributes that owners valued in their veterinary and so knowledge or competency, and trustworthiness and compassion the highest ranked outfits for those were scrubs and coveralls, which was a very interesting and unique finding for us. Coveralls aren't something that we often wear as equine vets most commonly, so that was a unique finding, I think. In terms of the ranking of attributes and what clients value, that was another good thing just for us to know. So we looked at how easygoing the vet was if they were friendly and compassionate, trustworthy, professional, competent and then how expensive their services is, because we all know, at the end of the day, the client also has to pay that bill and when they really had to rank those from most desirable to least desirable, overall they really valued knowledge and competency, followed by trustworthiness and compassion. So I just think that's great information for us to have too.
Speaker 4:And then we looked at some more unique findings as well. So if they care about things like facial piercings, tattoos, if you have, you know, hair dyed and non-organic color, blue or pink or something like that and overall respondents didn't seem to care too much about those, and we did find that respondents that self-identified with those features so those that maybe had a tattoo or, you know, a nose piercing, things like that were more likely to find them acceptable in their equine vet as well. And then we also asked them if they really thought that what a veterinarian wore was important, and 37.1% of our horse owners or leases agreed that what their vet wears could influence their confidence in them. But there's been some other studies too that show that that number could be even higher than that, just due to, like, a social desirability bias. So people may not want to admit that if you show up in something like jeans and a t-shirt, they may not have that sort of a preference for you, or they may prefer you to be in something like scrubs and coveralls really fascinating.
Speaker 3:At cornell when I first started in the early 90s, the male veterinarians on the equine side still wore ties and you know we weren't really allowed. I mean, it wasn't a written rule, but it was an understood rule that if you had a short-sleeved shirt on it had a collar of some sort. So like T-shirts weren't allowed, and so it's fascinating. Yeah, kelly, what sparked your research interest in equine veterinary attire?
Speaker 5:I think Erin is is the is the source of my interest in this.
Speaker 5:You know, my Erin is my advisee and I was just had a conversation with her about what she might want to do in terms of the project, and I think we had just presented maybe an entire article in Journal Club and we just I think we both found it interesting.
Speaker 5:I can usually get excited about pretty much any resident project that they come up with, so I think this one was really interesting and you know this was sort of completed during COVID. So this was it was a nice, you know, survey-based project that allowed us to kind of circumvent a lot of the barriers to research that happened during that time. So it was a really nice way for us to gain access to a really large population. And I think one of the nice things about this project is that we had a huge number of respondents, and I think that's because people were at home on social media and so that you know I really like projects where you can find large numbers, because I think that's where the impact is, and so this project was really exciting to me because I think, really because of the numbers that we were able to get.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3:I agree with that, kelly. That was one of the first things that struck me. You know, when you read surveys and any surveys we do as well oftentimes you get a three to a five and you're really lucky if you get a 7% response rate. So well done, good timing, serendipitous yes.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, one good thing to come up with.
Speaker 5:You always have to find the silver lining Exactly.
Speaker 3:How did you two team up and what attributes of JAVMA did you decide you wanted to share your important work with JAVMA?
Speaker 4:I think JAVMA has a nice kind of wide reader base. I know that one of the other similar articles looking at the small animal setting was also published in JAVMA, which is great. I think it's something that is applicable kind of across all aspects of veterinary medicine. Everybody has kind of their own little niche, but I think it's just good to be aware that there are some of those perceptions and preferences for our clients, and you guys have been great to work with throughout the whole submission and all of that process as well.
Speaker 5:So I think another one of the things that again not I didn't think about this going into this project, but I think one of the unintended impacts of this study is just the impact that this can have for veterinary students and veterinary education, and I think that's one of the benefits of JAMA is it again is a journal that many vet students have access to and will read during vet school, and it's a nice journal that has great comparative aspects. Really interesting is in understanding how equine attire professional equine attire is different and similar to what exists for the other veterinarians of other species.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, thank you again for sharing it with us, and then we get the privilege of interviewing you on this podcast. Yeah, thank you. I'll ask each one of you this question. Either one can start. Erin went over earlier some of the pivotal findings in the manuscript, but always when we do these things, something surprises us Like hmm, I wouldn't have thought that. So, each of you, what do you think was the most surprising finding from your study?
Speaker 4:So, each of you, what do you think was the most surprising finding from your study? I think for me the coveralls, honestly, was the most surprising thing. We really just did not anticipate coveralls to be ranked quite high Initially, when we were going through the different options, we had combinations of you know kind of a khaki pants with a scrub top or a polo jeans, all those different combinations. But coveralls was something we added in a little bit later in the game, just as kind of a additional option, but not one that jumped to the front of our mind, and to have that one be ranked as one of the top two preferences I think was quite surprising. It seems to be one that more you know mixed animal, mixed large animal practitioners wear more often. So I think it's just good to know that that's also a good option for equine vets.
Speaker 5:I think for me one of the things that is surprising but not surprising maybe were just the gender differences, that people had different preferences for male and female veterinarians, especially when you really started digging into for a certain trait. So of those seven kind of traits, you know, if you just looked at the top three, there were certain differences between what people preferred for males and what they preferred for females. And you know again what people preferred for males and what they preferred for females. And you know again. Not surprising in that you really want people to perceive genders equally in so many ways, but also not surprising because you know that there are these gender differences, that you know biases that people have.
Speaker 3:Sure, erin, I think you know you're originally from Minnesota, as you said earlier, and we're getting acquainted, and I'm from North Dakota, I think any place and I live in Ithaca, new York, I think any place that has a decent winter gets used to seeing their veterinarian in the winter with Carhartts or coveralls of some sort. So it might even be your best sports medicine person in the region and in the summer they're wearing something different, but the coveralls are a necessity to get them onto your barn in the winter.
Speaker 4:Yes, absolutely Mine get put through a beating every winter, that's for sure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's a good point that there are some, maybe some environmental or temperature differences that could change perceptions depending on the season yeah definitely, Kelly.
Speaker 3:just for our listeners who might not have read your article yet, can you tell the listeners what those gender preferences are for male versus female veterinarians?
Speaker 5:So one of the things that we found in terms of gender differences was that the female veterinarian, irrespective of what they wore, was actually found to be significantly more compassionate overall and for the t-shirt and jeans, the male vet in that outfit was viewed as significantly more competent than the female vet in that outfit. The t-shirt and jeans overall was the lowest ranked outfit, so it was the least preferred of the outfits that we used in the study, but I think that's one example of where I think we see some gender bias specifically for that outfit.
Speaker 2:I think that your first figure too, in your manuscript is a really good job of illustrating to the differences between the genders. I know you have like the male on think on top is like A and B is the female. So I'm actually looking to promote your article on social media and I was like this figure is perfect. It shows all the outfit choices for each gender.
Speaker 5:It's funny, I think we we both really felt strongly because the survey generated a massive amount of data and so I think we both felt really strongly that we wanted some kind of, you know, impactful images that sort of demonstrated you know succinctly what we were hoping to get across from the massive amount of data. And so the images we worked pretty not we, erin did pretty hard on those to develop something that would hopefully demonstrate the impact.
Speaker 2:So, thank you. Yeah, I think it was a great addition. And, for those of you just joining us, we're discussing horse owner opinions on equine veterinarian attire and attributes with our guests Erin O'Neill and Callie Fogle. So, erin, as we discussed, you are nearing the end of your residency. Congratulations, thank you. How did your advanced training prepare you to write this manuscript?
Speaker 4:This is kind of the first you know, first author manuscript that I have published, and so there's a big learning curve that goes along with all of that. I have more of a sociology background, which I think was a different perspective on coming into this, but Callie was a great mentor and a lot of help getting through this initial process, along with the rest of our team. Katie Sheets and Kim Love were great in trying to get all of this work done and then process that huge amount of data that we did have and kind of dial that down into what we thought were the most important findings and the best way to really get those across to the readers.
Speaker 5:I think the residency teaches you perseverance, which you need to get things published. It's the perseverance that's critical.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah that's so true. I was just talking to some students at another conference that I was at and I was like get your projects finished before you start your rotating internships, like it'll, you'll thank yourself later for it, absolutely yes, I feel like I always had a lofty goal to get it done right away, and it always seems to end up taking a little longer than you think, so just got to keep on going.
Speaker 2:Yes, now this next set of questions is going to be really important for our listeners. What is one piece of information the veterinarian should know before deciding how their attire may influence their relationship with their clients?
Speaker 4:I think, as Callie mentioned, this was done during a COVID time where, unfortunately, our face-to-face contact with our owners was really limited.
Speaker 4:It was often down to that initial meeting them in the parking lot to grab their horse and bring them in, and everything else was done over the phone. So I think that especially, was a time where you had a very limited window and those kind of assumptions and everything that our clients made about us which we all do, we know that's just an inherent thing happened really quickly and was really limited. And so I think, as veterinarians, it's really good information for us to have just to know that what we wear really does form an impact on our owners. And you're not necessarily going to go out and buy a whole new wardrobe if you wear, you know, scrubs and jeans every day. But I think it's a good set of tools to have in your kind of communication toolbox to use that and know how that outfit may be perceived and how that could affect your veterinary client relationship and you can just use that to form the best bond with your clients that you possibly can, which, as we all know, helps us take the best care of our patients.
Speaker 2:And then on the other side of the relationship, what's one thing clients should consider around equine veterinary and attire.
Speaker 4:I think that is a very good question. I think that you know we all say try not to judge a book by its cover. We all do. But I think, just keeping in the back of your mind, that there is a very wide variety of things worn by equine vets and you know, if you're moving to a different part of the country, you know, as we were saying, your vet in Minnesota in the winter is probably going to show up in coveralls and a big puffy jacket and just trying to stay warm, versus, you know, a veterinarian in Texas or Florida. They just may have a different set of attire and I think the other thing is just to try them. Cut them a little bit of slack too. If your vet's coming out at two o'clock in the morning and your horse is colicking and they show up in jeans and a t-shirt, maybe give them a little grace on what they're wearing and things like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a really good point, because they're in a super anxious moment, so they're probably more likely to judge you in an emergency situation.
Speaker 4:Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 5:I think so. And just awareness. I mean we talk about bias a lot here in the veterinary school and I think one of the best things that you can do to try to negate the impact of bias that we all have is just being aware. So I think you know that I think should go for clients too is just being aware of the fact that we all have these biases and that, you know, just doing our best to try to see the human behind the clothes. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you both. So much Again. As we wind down, we'd like to ask a couple of fun questions of each of you. So, kelly, your question is if you could have one superpower, what would it be and why?
Speaker 5:You know, I think my wish as a female equine surgeon has always been to just be a little bit stronger, like I, you know. So I think in terms of my career, I've always wished for just a little bit more muscle. So maybe superhuman strength would be the superpower I wish for my career. I think, from a personal perspective, I'm also a mother and so I think I don't even know Superhuman multitasking would be my wish from my personal life.
Speaker 3:Amen to both of those. Yeah and Erin, if you couldn't be, or you weren't, a veterinarian, what would you be and why?
Speaker 4:As I mentioned, I have a sociology background. I was a sociology major in undergrad coming into vet school, which was definitely not the usual you know animal science, biology tracks of a lot of my classmates. If I wasn't a vet, I would want to be something like a criminologist probably I'm a you know crime podcast junkie and love all those kinds of shows and I just find that aspect of you know, the human interaction is really fascinating, I think there's some parallels with you're a sleuth in both professions right like you're a veterinary sleuth right.
Speaker 5:Like you're doing a colic surgery. You're sleuthing out the lesion. Yeah, criminology, you're sleuthing out the criminal that's true.
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course this can't tell us what's wrong, so you gotta use. You know you're right, it's both sleuthing.
Speaker 2:Yes that's awesome. I love that perspective and thank you both aaron and callie, for being here today and for contributing your research to Javma.
Speaker 5:Really appreciate it yes, thanks for having us yes, and thanks for accepting our publication yes, and to our listeners.
Speaker 2:You can read Erin and Callie's article and print Javma or online using your favorite search engine. I'm Sarah Wright with Lisa Fortier. We want to thank each of you for joining us on this episode of the Veterinary Vertex podcast. We love sharing cutting edge veterinary research with you and we want to hear from you. Be sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you listen to.
